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	<title>Comments on: Surviving Collapse Part 2</title>
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	<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/</link>
	<description>Anatoly Karlin on Eurasia, geopolitics, and peak oil</description>
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		<title>By: Nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3220</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 12:01:00 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Anyway, it&#039;s just another scenario. You can never know what comes next</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anyway, it&#8217;s just another scenario. You can never know what comes next</p>
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		<title>By: Nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3219</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 11:58:41 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I think the point three is highly unlikely. 

The point four is largely irrelevant. For one the foreign companies have their professional workforce, for another it&#039;s a matter of how much they pay to bring Iraqi engineers back.

About the point one I have little idea, but Iraq in general seems to be more transparent that the kingdoms and emirates of the Gulf. In fact, if I remember it right, some people say that Iraqi reserves are actually underestimated.

As to the point two, probably yes. Let alone with the mess the new administration is making of the US foreign policy and this senseless moving back and fourth forces between Iraq and Afghanistan.  However, I would like to note that if the original goal of invasion was to gain a lever to put the Middle East on its head (or better on its feet), then the project is actually succeeding. The Green Revolution is probably very much influenced by what&#039;s going in Iraq, where the Ayatollahs seem to have found a better balance between religion and politics and Iraq has enough resources to allow the US to collapse the OPEC and force the Arabs to reform if it moves quickly enough. As it looks now Iraq may well become the greatest opportunity ever missed by the US in the history of its oversees adventures. Never mind that the only thing left for Obama to do was to finish the work already done by others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the point three is highly unlikely. </p>
<p>The point four is largely irrelevant. For one the foreign companies have their professional workforce, for another it&#8217;s a matter of how much they pay to bring Iraqi engineers back.</p>
<p>About the point one I have little idea, but Iraq in general seems to be more transparent that the kingdoms and emirates of the Gulf. In fact, if I remember it right, some people say that Iraqi reserves are actually underestimated.</p>
<p>As to the point two, probably yes. Let alone with the mess the new administration is making of the US foreign policy and this senseless moving back and fourth forces between Iraq and Afghanistan.  However, I would like to note that if the original goal of invasion was to gain a lever to put the Middle East on its head (or better on its feet), then the project is actually succeeding. The Green Revolution is probably very much influenced by what&#8217;s going in Iraq, where the Ayatollahs seem to have found a better balance between religion and politics and Iraq has enough resources to allow the US to collapse the OPEC and force the Arabs to reform if it moves quickly enough. As it looks now Iraq may well become the greatest opportunity ever missed by the US in the history of its oversees adventures. Never mind that the only thing left for Obama to do was to finish the work already done by others.</p>
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		<title>By: AK</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3218</link>
		<dc:creator>AK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 11:31:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=3098#comment-3218</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll try to find time to reply to your points in more detail in the comments or other posts (rather hard to do soon since I&#039;ll be going skiing today for a week and then be going back to work), but for now I&#039;ll just quote &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=236336239537&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a Facebook Note&lt;/a&gt; on the wildly ambitious Iraqi plans you mention.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Anatoly Karlin &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6101&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;#Iraq *may* increase oil production&lt;/a&gt; and prolong peak oil downslope by a decade... but IMO unlikely
Wed at 3:17pm via Twitter · Comment · Like

The reasons being that it makes at least four questionable assumptions, all of which have to be fulfilled.

1) Iraq&#039;s reserves not overstated &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.theoildrum.com/classic/2005/06/twilight-in-desert.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;as is almost certainly the case in Saudi Arabia and most other OPEC nations&lt;/a&gt;.

2) The security situation in Iraq remains stable, unlikely given the fragility of the post-2008 agreements between ethnic / religious clans.

3) No geopolitical disruptions, such as Iran blocking the Strait of Hormuz and making raids on Iraqi oil installations (e.g. see &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Iraq Says Iran Occupied a Border Oil Field&lt;/a&gt;) in response to a US-Israeli strike on its nuclear facilities.

4) Iraq manages to attract the technical talent to make this work. Developing oil fields is a highly complex organizational endevour, and most of its educated technocrats left in 2003-2008.&lt;/blockquote&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll try to find time to reply to your points in more detail in the comments or other posts (rather hard to do soon since I&#8217;ll be going skiing today for a week and then be going back to work), but for now I&#8217;ll just quote <a href="http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=236336239537" rel="nofollow">a Facebook Note</a> on the wildly ambitious Iraqi plans you mention.</p>
<blockquote><p>Anatoly Karlin <a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/node/6101" rel="nofollow">#Iraq *may* increase oil production</a> and prolong peak oil downslope by a decade&#8230; but IMO unlikely<br />
Wed at 3:17pm via Twitter · Comment · Like</p>
<p>The reasons being that it makes at least four questionable assumptions, all of which have to be fulfilled.</p>
<p>1) Iraq&#8217;s reserves not overstated <a href="http://www.theoildrum.com/classic/2005/06/twilight-in-desert.html" rel="nofollow">as is almost certainly the case in Saudi Arabia and most other OPEC nations</a>.</p>
<p>2) The security situation in Iraq remains stable, unlikely given the fragility of the post-2008 agreements between ethnic / religious clans.</p>
<p>3) No geopolitical disruptions, such as Iran blocking the Strait of Hormuz and making raids on Iraqi oil installations (e.g. see <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/19/world/middleeast/19iraq.html" rel="nofollow">Iraq Says Iran Occupied a Border Oil Field</a>) in response to a US-Israeli strike on its nuclear facilities.</p>
<p>4) Iraq manages to attract the technical talent to make this work. Developing oil fields is a highly complex organizational endevour, and most of its educated technocrats left in 2003-2008.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: Nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3217</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 10:45:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=3098#comment-3217</guid>
		<description>This is by the way the worst case scenario. I can perfectly imagine at least the oil market ending in a total meltdown. The world is awash with shale gas. Iraq is planning to ramp up its production to the Saudi levels within the next 6-7 years. China is phasing out its fuel subsidies and aggressively promoting alternative energies. There are more than enough nations around similarly obsessed with AGW or energy dependence issues. Brazil is constantly complaining about its ethanol locked out of the US and EU markets. In Iran the fuel subsidies reformed was already approved by the Parliament. Put more pressure on OPEC and more of its members will follow suit cutting their own subsidies and collapsing the domestic demand. Throw in some unexpected technological breakthrough and in the next 10-15 years this market will come down a like a house of cards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is by the way the worst case scenario. I can perfectly imagine at least the oil market ending in a total meltdown. The world is awash with shale gas. Iraq is planning to ramp up its production to the Saudi levels within the next 6-7 years. China is phasing out its fuel subsidies and aggressively promoting alternative energies. There are more than enough nations around similarly obsessed with AGW or energy dependence issues. Brazil is constantly complaining about its ethanol locked out of the US and EU markets. In Iran the fuel subsidies reformed was already approved by the Parliament. Put more pressure on OPEC and more of its members will follow suit cutting their own subsidies and collapsing the domestic demand. Throw in some unexpected technological breakthrough and in the next 10-15 years this market will come down a like a house of cards.</p>
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		<title>By: Nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3216</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 10:24:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=3098#comment-3216</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t see it in these terms at all. First of all the properly asked question should be how energy efficient we can get. Its economic equivalent in today&#039;s terms should be how expensive carbon fuels can get before the same US falls to pieces. In my view after a painful adaptation the US can handle an equivalent of an even $200 per barrel. Technologically we are perfectly capable of surviving it. The US is practicing an extremely wasteful and inefficient lifestyle, but if the price starts rising the car fleet will be switched to more efficient cars, people and industries will get closer to each other to reduce transportation costs, the culture may change with people more readily moving to live closer to their workplaces instead of commuting for hours. In production more attention will be given to energy efficient technologies. Basically the problem is the lifestyle, not the technology, and the energy consumption per capita can be reduced dramatically.

It&#039;s after taking into account the improved energy efficiency that we should check the alternatives.At $150-$200 per barrel I bet that all alternatives from wind to solar become economically viable, and if some of them are not right now they will be in 10-15 years from now. With the demand for energy stagnating or outright collapsing because of the high price all calculations for how much land and water we need for growing biofuels or how much solar towers should be erected become rather different. Until now such estimates I saw around are always ignoring the elasticity of demand. If the energy gets more expensive, the demand will go down. And we are not yet running out of deep sea oil, oil shale and never mid coal.

In short, I think this peak energy is unreasonably overhyped. AGW is another matter if it&#039;s real, but energy, which is so much a supply and demand thing? You have such massive companies around the world heavily investing in all sorts of R&amp;D waiting for opportunity to come up with something new. Even Exxon is investing in shale gas and algal farming. You want to tell me that they will be just sitting and watching post peak energy gathering momentum? I don&#039;t believe it. Governments can be helpful of course. The US for example can swap taxes and oil is the best place to start. They should restructure taxation by cutting payroll and other taxes and introducing gas tax or better a tariff on imported oil. The best way to handle any possible peak energy crisis is by making it happen now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see it in these terms at all. First of all the properly asked question should be how energy efficient we can get. Its economic equivalent in today&#8217;s terms should be how expensive carbon fuels can get before the same US falls to pieces. In my view after a painful adaptation the US can handle an equivalent of an even $200 per barrel. Technologically we are perfectly capable of surviving it. The US is practicing an extremely wasteful and inefficient lifestyle, but if the price starts rising the car fleet will be switched to more efficient cars, people and industries will get closer to each other to reduce transportation costs, the culture may change with people more readily moving to live closer to their workplaces instead of commuting for hours. In production more attention will be given to energy efficient technologies. Basically the problem is the lifestyle, not the technology, and the energy consumption per capita can be reduced dramatically.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s after taking into account the improved energy efficiency that we should check the alternatives.At $150-$200 per barrel I bet that all alternatives from wind to solar become economically viable, and if some of them are not right now they will be in 10-15 years from now. With the demand for energy stagnating or outright collapsing because of the high price all calculations for how much land and water we need for growing biofuels or how much solar towers should be erected become rather different. Until now such estimates I saw around are always ignoring the elasticity of demand. If the energy gets more expensive, the demand will go down. And we are not yet running out of deep sea oil, oil shale and never mid coal.</p>
<p>In short, I think this peak energy is unreasonably overhyped. AGW is another matter if it&#8217;s real, but energy, which is so much a supply and demand thing? You have such massive companies around the world heavily investing in all sorts of R&amp;D waiting for opportunity to come up with something new. Even Exxon is investing in shale gas and algal farming. You want to tell me that they will be just sitting and watching post peak energy gathering momentum? I don&#8217;t believe it. Governments can be helpful of course. The US for example can swap taxes and oil is the best place to start. They should restructure taxation by cutting payroll and other taxes and introducing gas tax or better a tariff on imported oil. The best way to handle any possible peak energy crisis is by making it happen now.</p>
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		<title>By: AK</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3215</link>
		<dc:creator>AK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:58:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=3098#comment-3215</guid>
		<description>I won&#039;t be. It takes decades to effect an energy transition, e.g. the one from biomass to (more effective) fossil fuels took half a century. Replacing the fossil-fuel energy infrastructure with a renewable one will be very costly, especially since we&#039;ll be moving down EROEI in the process (wind, solar, and nuclear all have much lower &quot;energy return on energy invested&quot; than today&#039;s oil or coal), and because there&#039;s potentially so much that will have to be replaced. The following questions can be justifiable asked:

a) Can the transition happen in time with the running out of high-EROEI hydrocarbons?
b) Will the pollution produced by the Age of Fossil Fuels (CO2) put unbearable stress on global agriculture before the transition is completed?
c) Will there be the political will to accelerate the transition to renewables and encourage a shift in social values from growth mania to sustainability?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I won&#8217;t be. It takes decades to effect an energy transition, e.g. the one from biomass to (more effective) fossil fuels took half a century. Replacing the fossil-fuel energy infrastructure with a renewable one will be very costly, especially since we&#8217;ll be moving down EROEI in the process (wind, solar, and nuclear all have much lower &#8220;energy return on energy invested&#8221; than today&#8217;s oil or coal), and because there&#8217;s potentially so much that will have to be replaced. The following questions can be justifiable asked:</p>
<p>a) Can the transition happen in time with the running out of high-EROEI hydrocarbons?<br />
b) Will the pollution produced by the Age of Fossil Fuels (CO2) put unbearable stress on global agriculture before the transition is completed?<br />
c) Will there be the political will to accelerate the transition to renewables and encourage a shift in social values from growth mania to sustainability?</p>
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		<title>By: Nobody</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3214</link>
		<dc:creator>Nobody</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 09 Jan 2010 09:34:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=3098#comment-3214</guid>
		<description>&lt;em&gt;AK
January 7, 2010 at 10:49 pm
I don’t agree with many things Orlov says.

For instance, his idea that industrial collapse is already imminent due to peak oil. But I very much doubt that, more likely it will coincide with peak energy (which may occur at around 2030-50).&lt;/em&gt;

I will be surprised if by 2030 and let alone by 2050 we will be still so dependent on fossil fuels and never mind fossil fuels, but just oil.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><em>AK<br />
January 7, 2010 at 10:49 pm<br />
I don’t agree with many things Orlov says.</p>
<p>For instance, his idea that industrial collapse is already imminent due to peak oil. But I very much doubt that, more likely it will coincide with peak energy (which may occur at around 2030-50).</em></p>
<p>I will be surprised if by 2030 and let alone by 2050 we will be still so dependent on fossil fuels and never mind fossil fuels, but just oil.</p>
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		<title>By: AK</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3198</link>
		<dc:creator>AK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 06:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=3098#comment-3198</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t agree with many things Orlov says.

For instance, his idea that industrial collapse is already imminent due to peak oil. But I very much doubt that, more likely it will coincide with peak energy (which may occur at around 2030-50).

I think he is excessively pessimistic on many aspects of US resilience to collapse. Though he &lt;i&gt;may&lt;/i&gt; have a point that collapse in a capitalist society is worse than one in a socialist one from a humanitarian perspective, the capitalist society will also probably reform itself to a new equilibrium quicker. And he vastly exaggerates America&#039;s ethnic tensions and religious fervor, IMO.

I also believe his blanket disapproval of political activism of any kind is counter-productive. Etc.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t agree with many things Orlov says.</p>
<p>For instance, his idea that industrial collapse is already imminent due to peak oil. But I very much doubt that, more likely it will coincide with peak energy (which may occur at around 2030-50).</p>
<p>I think he is excessively pessimistic on many aspects of US resilience to collapse. Though he <i>may</i> have a point that collapse in a capitalist society is worse than one in a socialist one from a humanitarian perspective, the capitalist society will also probably reform itself to a new equilibrium quicker. And he vastly exaggerates America&#8217;s ethnic tensions and religious fervor, IMO.</p>
<p>I also believe his blanket disapproval of political activism of any kind is counter-productive. Etc.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3197</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 06:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=3098#comment-3197</guid>
		<description>Nice presentation of Orlov&#039;s perspective. 

Here is my only factual quibble:

&quot;natural gas production is now set to fall off a production cliff&quot;

According to NPR, this is no longer true, due to new methods of extraction. 

During an economic collapse, parts of the US might well revert to coal-based energy production. Also, the US has lots of domestic oil as well, such that in a crisis, government entities might simply seize the facilities or coerce cooperation from the companies. This would not help the average consumer, though, and prices would probably go way up. 

I think that various state and federal government officials have been planning for The Collapse for some time now; I have been aware of it for about 15 years anyway. 

You seem to have overlooked the question of how the military will be deployed (or was deployed in Russia), except for brief mention of external deployment in order to distract the populace from domestic crisis.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice presentation of Orlov&#8217;s perspective. </p>
<p>Here is my only factual quibble:</p>
<p>&#8220;natural gas production is now set to fall off a production cliff&#8221;</p>
<p>According to NPR, this is no longer true, due to new methods of extraction. </p>
<p>During an economic collapse, parts of the US might well revert to coal-based energy production. Also, the US has lots of domestic oil as well, such that in a crisis, government entities might simply seize the facilities or coerce cooperation from the companies. This would not help the average consumer, though, and prices would probably go way up. </p>
<p>I think that various state and federal government officials have been planning for The Collapse for some time now; I have been aware of it for about 15 years anyway. </p>
<p>You seem to have overlooked the question of how the military will be deployed (or was deployed in Russia), except for brief mention of external deployment in order to distract the populace from domestic crisis.</p>
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		<title>By: NewAmericaNow</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/01/06/surviving-collapse-2/#comment-3196</link>
		<dc:creator>NewAmericaNow</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 03:58:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=3098#comment-3196</guid>
		<description>I believe the collapse will be very sudden and very bad. For those that are not prepared it will be quite dreadful and many will die. However, when the dust settles the capacity for regeneration of America is great. Agriculture will be the new driving force of the economy and new global human rights will be heralded in as an alternative to global governance. Lets get past the first part and the second part will unfold as humanity will dictate. See my blog for important information that may save you and your family. Good Luck and God bless</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the collapse will be very sudden and very bad. For those that are not prepared it will be quite dreadful and many will die. However, when the dust settles the capacity for regeneration of America is great. Agriculture will be the new driving force of the economy and new global human rights will be heralded in as an alternative to global governance. Lets get past the first part and the second part will unfold as humanity will dictate. See my blog for important information that may save you and your family. Good Luck and God bless</p>
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