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	<title>Comments on: Russia’s Demographic Resilience IV</title>
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	<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/</link>
	<description>Anatoly Karlin on Eurasia, geopolitics, and peak oil</description>
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		<title>By: Sergey Z</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-7726</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergey Z</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Oct 2010 03:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-7726</guid>
		<description>Will Fires play any role in Rus. demographics? thanks great site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Will Fires play any role in Rus. demographics? thanks great site.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6901</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Aug 2010 11:56:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6901</guid>
		<description>Boris,

if you read previous installments in SO series on demography, you&#039;d see that the developments were relatively similar in Ukraine until the crisis as well. Ukraine was &quot;democratic&quot; after 2004, and it never had Putin. TFR (Total Fertility Rate) in Ukraine fell from 2.07 in 1987 to 1.08 in 2001 but then picked up to 1.30 in 2007.

There are also cases of Baltic countries. Take Latvia. TFR was 2.21 in 1987, dropped to 1.11 in 1998 and in 2007 stood at 1.41. Estonia: 2.27 in 1987, minimum of 1.28 in 1998, and 1.64 in 2007.
 
So, you see, the big picture developments in Russian demography are not that dissimilar to those observed in many other FSU countries: very high TFR in late 80es, nadir around turn of millennium, and a more or less expressed pick-up in later years. Unless you believe that Russia could corrupt statistical offices in the whole of FSU, you must admit that the effect is real.

On your &quot;doubts on how things are so suddenly and so rapidly turning great when they were horrible a second ago&quot;. Things are not &quot;great&quot;, they just turn less horrible, and it&#039;s still some way to go before they turn normal. Did you have doubts on fertility statistics when Russian TFR fell from 2.23 in 1987 to 1.22 in 1997 and then 1.16 in 1999? Why doubt, then, that it went from 1.30 in 2006 to 1.41 in 2007 - it&#039;s absolutely the same rate of change?

Finally, the data issue. All the numbers in this post are taken from this table: http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/sng__tfr.php. Note that demoscope.ru is not part of Rosstat, and that their numbers for Russian TFR up until 2007 are exactly coinciding with Rosstat&#039;s ones. For 2008, they did a lazy thing: took 2008 World Population Data Sheet from the US Population Reference Bureau, http://www.prb.org/pdf08/08WPDS_Eng.pdf, and copied numbers from there for most of the countries. The 2008 Data Sheet has been issued in August 2008 which means that many numbers, including TFR and life expectancy, are just 2007 official numbers (in many countries, these numbers become officially known with about a one year lag). In addition, the Bureau publishes TFR numbers rounded to one decimal digit. This explains the demoscope&#039;s number of 1.40 for Russia in 2008, while the official one was 1.49.

I could do the same story over about the life expectancy: nothing at all but a partial recovery after the transition disaster. Why is it so hard to imagine that after a catastrophe life bounces back?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Boris,</p>
<p>if you read previous installments in SO series on demography, you&#8217;d see that the developments were relatively similar in Ukraine until the crisis as well. Ukraine was &#8220;democratic&#8221; after 2004, and it never had Putin. TFR (Total Fertility Rate) in Ukraine fell from 2.07 in 1987 to 1.08 in 2001 but then picked up to 1.30 in 2007.</p>
<p>There are also cases of Baltic countries. Take Latvia. TFR was 2.21 in 1987, dropped to 1.11 in 1998 and in 2007 stood at 1.41. Estonia: 2.27 in 1987, minimum of 1.28 in 1998, and 1.64 in 2007.</p>
<p>So, you see, the big picture developments in Russian demography are not that dissimilar to those observed in many other FSU countries: very high TFR in late 80es, nadir around turn of millennium, and a more or less expressed pick-up in later years. Unless you believe that Russia could corrupt statistical offices in the whole of FSU, you must admit that the effect is real.</p>
<p>On your &#8220;doubts on how things are so suddenly and so rapidly turning great when they were horrible a second ago&#8221;. Things are not &#8220;great&#8221;, they just turn less horrible, and it&#8217;s still some way to go before they turn normal. Did you have doubts on fertility statistics when Russian TFR fell from 2.23 in 1987 to 1.22 in 1997 and then 1.16 in 1999? Why doubt, then, that it went from 1.30 in 2006 to 1.41 in 2007 &#8211; it&#8217;s absolutely the same rate of change?</p>
<p>Finally, the data issue. All the numbers in this post are taken from this table: <a href="http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/sng__tfr.php" rel="nofollow">http://www.demoscope.ru/weekly/ssp/sng__tfr.php</a>. Note that demoscope.ru is not part of Rosstat, and that their numbers for Russian TFR up until 2007 are exactly coinciding with Rosstat&#8217;s ones. For 2008, they did a lazy thing: took 2008 World Population Data Sheet from the US Population Reference Bureau, <a href="http://www.prb.org/pdf08/08WPDS_Eng.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.prb.org/pdf08/08WPDS_Eng.pdf</a>, and copied numbers from there for most of the countries. The 2008 Data Sheet has been issued in August 2008 which means that many numbers, including TFR and life expectancy, are just 2007 official numbers (in many countries, these numbers become officially known with about a one year lag). In addition, the Bureau publishes TFR numbers rounded to one decimal digit. This explains the demoscope&#8217;s number of 1.40 for Russia in 2008, while the official one was 1.49.</p>
<p>I could do the same story over about the life expectancy: nothing at all but a partial recovery after the transition disaster. Why is it so hard to imagine that after a catastrophe life bounces back?</p>
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		<title>By: Boris</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6892</link>
		<dc:creator>Boris</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 13 Aug 2010 17:31:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6892</guid>
		<description>You seem to trust Rosstat alot, there&#039;s no guarantee that they&#039;re telling the truth, theres no video or audio feed of how they get their statistics and data, nothing appears on the news, nothing appears at all, what if they&#039;re telling a bunch of lies?
It&#039;s not that I don&#039;t believe Russia can improve it&#039;s demographics, or that I hate Russia, I don&#039;t, I love Russia, and I have every hope it won&#039;t end up depopulated, but I have my doubts on how things are so suddenly and so rapidly turning great when they were horrible a second ago, reversing demographics normally takes decades not months.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You seem to trust Rosstat alot, there&#8217;s no guarantee that they&#8217;re telling the truth, theres no video or audio feed of how they get their statistics and data, nothing appears on the news, nothing appears at all, what if they&#8217;re telling a bunch of lies?<br />
It&#8217;s not that I don&#8217;t believe Russia can improve it&#8217;s demographics, or that I hate Russia, I don&#8217;t, I love Russia, and I have every hope it won&#8217;t end up depopulated, but I have my doubts on how things are so suddenly and so rapidly turning great when they were horrible a second ago, reversing demographics normally takes decades not months.</p>
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		<title>By: AP</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6644</link>
		<dc:creator>AP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 04:04:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6644</guid>
		<description>That seems right.  Demographically you are talking about two groups.  Ukrainians who entered the USSR in 1939 have a demographic picture that ranks alongside Ireland and the Scandanavian countries in the top of Europe.  Ukrainians who were in the USSR from the beginning, who went through the massive social reengineering of the 1930&#039;s, have a demographic picture worse than the all-Ukraine average,  probably not much better than Latvia and therefore at the very bottom of Europe.  Kiev, is of course, anomalous within the post-1920 Soviet zone but this can be explained by the fact that it is the capital and draws in young people from elesewhere.
 
Here is a map from wikipedia showing 2008 data (it hasn&#039;t changed much for 2010*):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png

Interestingly, within each zone there are specific trends.  Although on the 2008 map even the worst post-1939 Soviet western province demographically is better than the best pre-1939 Soviet province, within the former group the 2 Volhynian provinces and Zakarpattia are better off than the 3 Galician provinces and Bukovyna.  Within the pre-1939 Soviet provinces, things are worse in the north and the Donbas, and better in the south.

*In comparison to 2008, Galicia and Donbas have each gotten slightly worse, so that Ternopil province has actually dipped below Crimea in natural growth rate (-4/1000 vs. -3.7/1000), while all the other regions have generally been the same or have shown slight improvement.  But the trends are still basically the same.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That seems right.  Demographically you are talking about two groups.  Ukrainians who entered the USSR in 1939 have a demographic picture that ranks alongside Ireland and the Scandanavian countries in the top of Europe.  Ukrainians who were in the USSR from the beginning, who went through the massive social reengineering of the 1930&#8242;s, have a demographic picture worse than the all-Ukraine average,  probably not much better than Latvia and therefore at the very bottom of Europe.  Kiev, is of course, anomalous within the post-1920 Soviet zone but this can be explained by the fact that it is the capital and draws in young people from elesewhere.</p>
<p>Here is a map from wikipedia showing 2008 data (it hasn&#8217;t changed much for 2010*):</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ukraine_natural_population_growth_rates.png</a></p>
<p>Interestingly, within each zone there are specific trends.  Although on the 2008 map even the worst post-1939 Soviet western province demographically is better than the best pre-1939 Soviet province, within the former group the 2 Volhynian provinces and Zakarpattia are better off than the 3 Galician provinces and Bukovyna.  Within the pre-1939 Soviet provinces, things are worse in the north and the Donbas, and better in the south.</p>
<p>*In comparison to 2008, Galicia and Donbas have each gotten slightly worse, so that Ternopil province has actually dipped below Crimea in natural growth rate (-4/1000 vs. -3.7/1000), while all the other regions have generally been the same or have shown slight improvement.  But the trends are still basically the same.</p>
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		<title>By: AK</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6641</link>
		<dc:creator>AK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 02:09:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6641</guid>
		<description>Yes, this must be a major factor. Also, BTW, the main reason why birth rates rise as you go east across Russia into the Urals and Siberia - the people there become younger. The cause of the still rapid depopulation trends in central Russia outside Moscow is not that fertility is a lot worse than in places like Irkutsk oblast, but that many young people have left for the metropolis and other regions while the old people remain in the country and small towns.

That said, far W. Ukraine is far more religious / traditionalist than the more &quot;Sovietized&quot; bulk of the country, so I&#039;d expect to see their total fertility rate at perhaps 1.7-1.9 children per woman relative to Ukraine&#039;s 1.46 average in 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, this must be a major factor. Also, BTW, the main reason why birth rates rise as you go east across Russia into the Urals and Siberia &#8211; the people there become younger. The cause of the still rapid depopulation trends in central Russia outside Moscow is not that fertility is a lot worse than in places like Irkutsk oblast, but that many young people have left for the metropolis and other regions while the old people remain in the country and small towns.</p>
<p>That said, far W. Ukraine is far more religious / traditionalist than the more &#8220;Sovietized&#8221; bulk of the country, so I&#8217;d expect to see their total fertility rate at perhaps 1.7-1.9 children per woman relative to Ukraine&#8217;s 1.46 average in 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: AK</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6640</link>
		<dc:creator>AK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Jul 2010 01:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6640</guid>
		<description>I have to completely disagree with you. Regional differences do not imply that country averages make no sense. The demographic differences between Donetsk and Zakarpatskaya are less than for Tula Oblast and Chechnya, or even New Hampshire and Utah. Does this mean that demographic data for Russian and the US is meaningless? Even only taking into account ethnic Russian areas in Russia, there&#039;s again substantial differences. In central Russian oblasts like Tula or Pskov, deaths outnumber births by almost 2:1. In contrast, a few regions like the Urals, Siberia, Moscow, and this year perhaps the Far East are already showing signs of slow natural population growth.

Ukraine&#039;s Jan-May 2010 birth rate decline and death rate decline was replicated across all regions. (Thought the far western regions seem to have shown a slightly smaller decline in the birth rate than average).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have to completely disagree with you. Regional differences do not imply that country averages make no sense. The demographic differences between Donetsk and Zakarpatskaya are less than for Tula Oblast and Chechnya, or even New Hampshire and Utah. Does this mean that demographic data for Russian and the US is meaningless? Even only taking into account ethnic Russian areas in Russia, there&#8217;s again substantial differences. In central Russian oblasts like Tula or Pskov, deaths outnumber births by almost 2:1. In contrast, a few regions like the Urals, Siberia, Moscow, and this year perhaps the Far East are already showing signs of slow natural population growth.</p>
<p>Ukraine&#8217;s Jan-May 2010 birth rate decline and death rate decline was replicated across all regions. (Thought the far western regions seem to have shown a slightly smaller decline in the birth rate than average).</p>
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		<title>By: AP</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6631</link>
		<dc:creator>AP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 20:18:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6631</guid>
		<description>Yes, that explains it.  The point is that it seems to be different populations with their own, different, characteristics rather than one &quot;Ukrainian population&quot; with x birthrate, fertility rate, etc.  An average score for very discrete groups doesn&#039;t say much that is meaningful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, that explains it.  The point is that it seems to be different populations with their own, different, characteristics rather than one &#8220;Ukrainian population&#8221; with x birthrate, fertility rate, etc.  An average score for very discrete groups doesn&#8217;t say much that is meaningful.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6628</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:38:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6628</guid>
		<description>Well, in the first 5 months of 2010 Zakarpattia had 6.0 marriages per 1000, Sumy 3.9 and Donetsk 4.1. Corresponding number of births was 14.0, 8.3, and 8.8.

Generally, the younger is the population, the more marriages one sees. It&#039;s likely that Zakarpattia, in addition to being more rural, also benefits from more young people.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, in the first 5 months of 2010 Zakarpattia had 6.0 marriages per 1000, Sumy 3.9 and Donetsk 4.1. Corresponding number of births was 14.0, 8.3, and 8.8.</p>
<p>Generally, the younger is the population, the more marriages one sees. It&#8217;s likely that Zakarpattia, in addition to being more rural, also benefits from more young people.</p>
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		<title>By: Sergey</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6627</link>
		<dc:creator>Sergey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 18:24:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6627</guid>
		<description>It looks like the night access will be restricted across the whole country soon. So far, several regions have implemented local bans. Besides, since about 2006 there&#039;s a constant stream of regulations that led to some small sale points getting out of business.

This year, a minimum price was introduced for a bottle of vodka which has probably led to a decrease in alcohol consumption, as not everyone would have switched to alcohol-containing liquids or home-made brews.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It looks like the night access will be restricted across the whole country soon. So far, several regions have implemented local bans. Besides, since about 2006 there&#8217;s a constant stream of regulations that led to some small sale points getting out of business.</p>
<p>This year, a minimum price was introduced for a bottle of vodka which has probably led to a decrease in alcohol consumption, as not everyone would have switched to alcohol-containing liquids or home-made brews.</p>
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		<title>By: AP</title>
		<link>http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/2010/07/28/russian-resilience-4/#comment-6618</link>
		<dc:creator>AP</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Jul 2010 17:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/?p=4942#comment-6618</guid>
		<description>@ Glossy - Yes Donetsk is urban and Zakarpattia (in the extreme west) rural, but rural Sumy province in the northeast corner of Ukraine has birth and death rates of 8.3 and 17.8 per thousand, respectively.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Glossy &#8211; Yes Donetsk is urban and Zakarpattia (in the extreme west) rural, but rural Sumy province in the northeast corner of Ukraine has birth and death rates of 8.3 and 17.8 per thousand, respectively.</p>
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