Yes, the big bad Muslim Empire strikes at all conspirators. Come on, the Chechens are a tightly knit social group in the Caucasus and many of them don't want to be part of Russia. The Caucasus is a region with great ethnic diversity and longetivity of tribes that disappeared elsewhere (something that's quite helpful for archaeology). That Muslims in Russia are often at odds with the Federation they live in has to do with ethnicity and distribution of power. The Germans and Jews in Russia were just equal targets of ethnic prejudice. From discrimination to terrorism it's a long way to go and by now the Russians are actually trying to solve these problems by having a federation with diverse countries and one majority that provides the framework and economic muscle for all to profit. Similar concepts can work quite well, but can also go awry such as Ireland in the UK. And yes, the Germans tried to support the Easter Rising, but it was the Irish who did it for their reasons, with their own goals and in their own way. So you can always ask yourself about helping someone to pressure someone else, but keep in mind that such knowledge gets better emitted than via radio and your opponent will respond in kind.
Stop seeing a big Muslim conspiracy and realize there are several different Muslim cultures and even a lot more factions and individuals. Just like there was a Una bomber there are Islamic terrorists who blow up lots of Muslims who don't join them.

@sherry william

The Bolshevik revolution of 1917 was met with overt hostility from President Wilson's administration.

Actually it was Woodrow Wilsons administration through the lobbying efforts of Jacob Schiff gave Trotsky and other Jewish Communists revolutionaries in New York passports to enter Russia who would become the bulk of the new government.

WOODROW WILSON AND A PASSPORT FOR TROTSKY

President Woodrow Wilson was the fairy godmother who provided Trotsky with a passport to return to Russia to "carry forward" the revolution. This American passport was accompanied by a Russian entry permit and a British transit visa. Jennings C. Wise, in Woodrow Wilson: Disciple of Revolution, makes the pertinent comment, "Historians must never forget that Woodrow Wilson, despite the efforts of the British police, made it possible for Leon Trotsky to enter Russia with an American passport."

President Wilson facilitated Trotsky's passage to Russia at the same time careful State Department bureaucrats, concerned about such revolutionaries entering Russia, were unilaterally attempting to tighten up passport procedures. The Stockholm legation cabled the State Department on June 13, 1917, just after Trotsky crossed the Finnish-Russian border, "Legation confidentially informed Russian, English and French passport offices at Russian frontier, Tornea, considerably worried by passage of suspicious persons bearing American passports."9

To this cable the State Department replied, on the same day, "Department is exercising special care in issuance of passports for Russia"; the department also authorized expenditures by the legation to establish a passport-control office in Stockholm and to hire an "absolutely dependable American citizen" for employment on control work.10 But the bird had flown the coop. Menshevik Trotsky with Lenin's Bolsheviks were already in Russia preparing to "carry forward" the revolution. The passport net erected caught only more legitimate birds. For example, on June 26, 1917, Herman Bernstein, a reputable New York newspaperman on his way to Petrograd to represent the New York Herald, was held at the border and refused entry to Russia. Somewhat tardily, in mid-August 1917 the Russian embassy in Washington requested the State Department (and State agreed) to "prevent the entry into Russia of criminals and anarchists... numbers of whom have already gone to Russia."11

Consequently, by virtue of preferential treatment for Trotsky, when the S.S. Kristianiafjord left New York on March 26, 1917, Trotsky was aboard and holding a U.S. passport — and in company with other Trotskyire revolutionaries, Wall Street financiers, American Communists, and other interesting persons, few of whom had embarked for legitimate business. This mixed bag of passengers has been described by Lincoln Steffens, the American Communist:

The passenger list was long and mysterious. Trotsky was in the steerage with a group of revolutionaries; there was a Japanese revolutionist in my cabin. There were a lot of Dutch hurrying home from Java, the only innocent people aboard. The rest were war messengers, two from Wall Street to Germany....12

Notably, Lincoln Steffens was on board en route to Russia at the specific invitation of Charles Richard Crane, a backer and a former chairman of the Democratic Party's finance committee. Charles Crane, vice president of the Crane Company, had organized the Westinghouse Company in Russia, was a member of the Root mission to Russia, and had made no fewer than twenty-three visits to Russia between 1890 and 1930. Richard Crane, his son, was confidential assistant to then Secretary of State Robert Lansing. According to the former ambassador to Germany William Dodd, Crane "did much to bring on the Kerensky revolution which gave way to Communism."13 And so Steffens' comments in his diary about conversations aboard the S.S. Kristianiafjord are highly pertinent:" . . . all agree that the revolution is in its first phase only, that it must grow. Crane and Russian radicals on the ship think we shall be in Petrograd for the re-revolution.14

Crane returned to the United States when the Bolshevik Revolution (that is, "the re-revolution") had been completed and, although a private citizen, was given firsthand reports of the progress of the Bolshevik Revolution as cables were received at the State Department. For example, one memorandum, dated December 11, 1917, is entitled "Copy of report on Maximalist uprising for Mr Crane." It originated with Maddin Summers, U.S. consul general in Moscow, and the covering letter from Summers reads in part:

I have the honor to enclose herewith a copy of same [above report] with the request that it be sent for the confidential information of Mr. Charles R. Crane. It is assumed that the Department will have no objection to Mr. Crane seeing the report ....15

In brief, the unlikely and puzzling picture that emerges is that Charles Crane, a friend and backer of Woodrow Wilson and a prominent financier and politician, had a known role in the "first" revolution and traveled to Russia in mid-1917 in company with the American Communist Lincoln Steffens, who was in touch with both Woodrow Wilson and Trotsky. The latter in turn was carrying a passport issued at the orders of Wilson and $10,000 from supposed German sources. On his return to the U.S. after the "re-revolution," Crane was granted access to official documents concerning consolidation of the Bolshevik regime: This is a pattern of interlocking — if puzzling — events that warrants further investigation and suggests, though without at this point providing evidence, some link between the financier Crane and the revolutionary Trotsky.

http://reformed-theology.org/html/books/bolshevik_revolution/chapter_02.htm#WOODROW WILSON AND A PASSPORT FOR TROTSKY

ALLIED INTELLEGENCE REPORTS

Report of the American Expeditionary forces to Siberia, March 1, 1919. Captain Montgomery Schyler, speaking of events following the decline of the First Provisional Government, says:

These hopes were frustrated by the gradual gains in power of the more irresponsible and socialistic elements of the population, guided by the Jews and other anti-Russian races. A table made in April 1918 by Robert Wilton, the correspondent of the London Times in Russia, shows that at that time there were 384 “commissars” including 2 Negroes, 13 Russians, 15 Chinamen, 22 Armenians and more than 300 Jews. Of the latter number, 264 had come to Russia from the United States since the downfall of the Imperial government.

Captain Schyler then provides a personal reflection:

It is probably unwise to say this loudly in the United States, but the Bolshevik movement is and has been since its beginning guided and controlled by Russian Jews of the greasiest type, who have been in the United States and there absorbed every one of the worst phases of our civilization without having the least understanding of what we really mean by liberty.

Western intervention during the Civil war period was to prolong Bolsheviks from siezing power to not let them take countrol and remove Russia from WW1 and support anti-Communist factions in strategic oil and gas sectors of Siberia and the Caucasus.

The Bolshevik revolution of 1917 was met with overt hostility from President Wilson's administration. After withdrawing funding for Russia and opposing a British and French plan to include the Bolsheviks as allies against Germany in 1918, the United States extended its maritime blockade of Germany to include Soviet Russia and began covertly supporting Russian opposition factions. In 1918, the United States together with other Western powers and Japan launched an armed intervention during the Russian Civil War that included an armed invasion staged in the Russian port cities of Vladivostok and Archangel. President Wilson appointed General William S. Graves to lead the thousands of American troops at Vladivostok.
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@Arkadi

Not surprising as at least 3 of the camps in Afghanistan were Chechen like in Khost were the terrorists for the 98 US Embassy bombings in Africa were recruited. I posted before a declassified 1998 Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) Intelligence Information Report (IIR) of Khattab proposing moving the camps directly to Russia after the Clinton bombing of 98 of Khost.

Muslim are anti-Western so why would the US support them is the same logic as we did we supported the Bolshevik takeover of Russia. The reason being because we have senior people in these movements and organisations are affiliated with western intelligence and Islamic front NGO’s operating in the US and Europe that funds these groups can be easily shut down and terrorist transit routes cut and especially there training camps and base in the Panski Gorge.

And if they do get out of line like the case of Babar Ahmed a senior Chechen propagandist who ran Azzam publications and financier who tried to set up a Chechen training camp in the US and personal webmaster for Basayeav and Khattab who after 9/11 started diverting efforts aginst US forces in Afghanistan and abroad which the US wants him extradited they can simply press charges and arrest them.

http://www.investigativeproject.org/cases.php

US v. Ahmad

Also check out the Phoenix memo and US v. Al-Haramain Islamic Foundation which is almost certain that they organised the Beslan massacre in Bosnia in 2004 with British intelligence oversight.

Why is training Muslims against Russia and Eurasia impossible?

It is a fact that through Turkey, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia and the Taliban regime we at least during the started of the de facto period trained Chechens on mass for a future conflict.

Chechens as well as the Uighers are on the payroll of NED and we help Muslims recruit from mosques in European countries since the 90's in fact the major terrorist attacks in the US and Russia as well as fighters being diverted to fight in Iraq are offshot groups of this network.

I research this for years so I think I know the Chechens and the BS surrounding it.

I suggest you read Paul Murphy’s book Wolves of Islam: Russia and the Faces of Chechen Terrorism. It is not the complete overview but it is the single best resource on the issue.

Solar Sun - What you described is not war, it's a form of ''pressure''. War is tanks, howitzers, jets, bombers etc etc.

As a side note, I think you are mis-interpreting the Muslim people. I don't know much Chechen terrorists, and have no particular interest in the topic, but from my experience these people do not accept Christianity and the 'west' in any form or other. I had the pleasure to live in a town with a mosque, and speak to many Muslims about their views. Many of them have open hatred towards Britain and USA, and I cannot see how MI6 and the CIA would openly co-operate with Muslim terrorists. Bombing civilians for ''liberty'' during operation Moshtarak, then training extremists to bomb Russia, to me, is impossible. They obey Allah, no-one else, and America is the intruder on their beliefs....Allahu Akbar!

Something interesting worth mentioning: a few weeks ago a documentary called 'Dispatches: Behind Enemy Lines' aired on Channel 4. This documentary was filmed by an Afghan journalist who lived with Taliban militants and filmed their lives. Near the end of the documentary, we see a glimpse of a ''Chechen brother'' travelling with the Taliban to rest in the mountains, and then, presumably, to fight the coalition. So much for their Chechen network..

Has anyone actually seriously researched Chechen terrorism and terrorism in Central Asia and China?

I'm guessing no one has read Paul Murphy’s book Wolves of Islam Russia and the Faces of Chechen Terrorism the definitive work on the subject or the extensive material from various publications and news sources of western intelligence supporting and creating an international terrorist and organised crime (Yossef Bodanskys ISSA being the best) in the Balkans.

@Arkadi

War by proxy using Chechen lead terrorism, Israeli-Russian organised crime, economic and political subversion all with the aim of clearly stated aim of breaking up War has already been declared

@T. Greer

State sponsored terrorism, ethnic cleansing and genocide. Was that not the reason we declared war on Afghanistan? And the Taliban government was only accused of harbouring OBL with no foreknowledge of the attack with recent declassified reports saying the Taliban regime put pressure on OBL before 9/11 to stop rhetoric/attacks against the US.

@Anatoly Karlin

Create a “conspiracy theory” subform all you want I will never post in it.
Not a conspiracy theory it is a realistic evaluation of the fact from well research information from credible sources mainstream news articles, intelligence review publications over the years I have researched the Balkans and Chechnya a lot (the latter is almost impossible to get good information about that is not pro-Chechen) and the undeniable fact that western governments were/are sponsoring terrorism in the Balkans which every credible source agrees and Russia in some case caught read handed like in the case of Abu Qatada who was in the pay of MI6 featured in Chechen Jihadist recruitment video . The September the 11th hijackers were originally part of a Bosnian-Chechen network to fight in Chechnya.

If it is just simply a conspiracy theory then you and other posters here will be able to answer about 10 or 15 questions that I will post

"What would the dichotomy be?"

Let me suggest "There Will Be War!" Or possibly none, just another subforum, as there is no need to halve the small number of posts.

'I'm thinking of creating a "Conspiracy Theories" subforum and relegating threads to there as appropriate. Would that be a good idea?'

What would the dichotomy be? <img src="http://www.sublimeoblivion.com/forum/my-plugins/bb-smilies/default/icon_confused.gif" title=":?" class="bb_smilies" />

I'm thinking of creating a "Conspiracy Theories" subforum and relegating threads to there as appropriate. Would that be a good idea?

Your are right Arkardi, but Solar Sun has a funny definition of war. I am still waiting to hear him define it for us.

I thought those doughnuts were supposed to be ''fallstreak holes''?

Anyway, I disagree with your views over the looming ww3. US will continue to pressure and attempt to disrupt Russia's revival, but that is not war.

@T. Greer

This is what I consider war I think you would agree.

Declassified 1998 US Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) Intelligence Information Report (IIR) of foreign terrorists networks in Russia and the Crimea and central Asia from Afghanistan and Pakistan through Turkey and Azerbaijan from a 2000 Freedom of Information act request from Judicial Watch.

“A good deal of information concerning OBLs and al Qaedas efforts in Chechnya, the Caucuses, Crimea, and the Central Asian Republics is covered in the IIR. The confirmed existence of a [secure, reliable, terrorist-sponsored] direct route to Chechnya from Pakistan and Afghanistan through Turkey and Azerbaijan is a stunning information point within this IIR especially in light of the date of the information, 1998.”

http://www.judicialwatch.org/story/2004/nov/defense-intelligence-report-details-al-qaedas-plans-russia-chechnya-and-wmd

http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/102/dia.pdf

And who is the Sakka they refer to in the report? This who Sakka is.

(Sakka's) story is also one of a globetrotting terrorist in an organisation that is truly multinational.
[...]
The Chechens needed trained fighters. Sakka was telephoned by Ibn al-Khattab, the late militia leader controlling the foreign fighters against the Russians. Khattab requested that Sakka’s trainees should be sent on to Afghanistan for military training because "conditions are tough".
[...]
One of Sakka’s chief roles was to organise passports and visas for the volunteers to make their way to Afghanistan through Pakistan. His ability to keep providing high-quality forged papers made Turkey a main hub for Al-Qaeda movements, his lawyer says. The young men came to Turkey pretending to be on holiday and Sakka’s false papers allowed them to "disappear" overseas.

Turkish intelligence were aware of unusual militant Islamic activity in the Yalova mountains, where Sakka had set up his camps.
[...]
Some of Sakka’s account is corroborated by the US government’s 9/11 Commission. It found evidence that four of the hijackers – whom Sakka says he trained – had initially intended to go to Chechnya from Turkey but the border into Georgia was closed.
[...]
Sakka’s lawyer said: "Just like there is money laundering, there is also terrorist laundering and Turkey was the centre of this."

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2008/7/15/551916/-Sibel-Edmonds-Case:-The-Central-Asia-Islamization-Cocktail:-Mosques,-Madrassas,-HeroinTerrorism

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2008/01/07/nukes-spooks-and-the-specter-of-911/

I don't know a specific date as there is virtually no information from a Russian perspective on these deployments with info from western source in the context of defence measures against Russian aggression since the Georgia conflict as there have been about 6 separate NATO exercises with NATO and EU forces in the first few months of Obama’s presidency.

I am estimating based on the preparation for the next Reagan administration from the Brzezinski/Carter regime with there pre-arranged large scale operation in Afghanistan in 79 I would predict a year or maybe before the end of this year that a staged incident either in the Crimea, Georgia or the Baltic’s which a false flag terrorist attack as a likely scenario which they will blame on Russia as the FSB staging it in which in conjunction with there sleeper cell Islamist forces could launch an attack in Russia but it will not be like Barbarossa a psychical assault by a huge invasion force .

A declassified 1998 Defence Intelligence Agency (DIA) Intelligence Information Report (IIR) of foreign terrorists networks in Russia and the Crimea and central Asia from Afghanistan and Pakistan through Turkey and Azerbaijan from a 2000 Freedom of Information act request from Judicial Watch states OBL/Khattabs network in Russia and sleeper units to carry out terrorist/sabotage/espionage in Russia for future events to rely on an economic crisis situation as a catalyst for recruitment and action. As note in the report the man responsible for the transfer of militants and training in Turkish military bases is Sakka which is revealed in a court case in Turkey to have trained the 9/11 hijackers to originally fight in Chechnya.

A good deal of information concerning OBLs and al Qaedas efforts in Chechnya, the Caucuses, Crimea, and the Central Asian Republics is covered in the IIR. The confirmed existence of a [secure, reliable, terrorist-sponsored] direct route to Chechnya from Pakistan and Afghanistan through Turkey and Azerbaijan is a stunning information point within this IIR especially in light of the date of the information, 1998.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/story/2004/nov/defense-intelligence-report-details-al-qaedas-plans-russia-chechnya-and-wmd

http://www.judicialwatch.org/cases/102/dia.pdf

http://original.antiwar.com/justin/2008/01/07/nukes-spooks-and-the-specter-of-911/

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article2936761.ece

I believe that the missile shield is probably for the purpose of the integration of HAARP weather technology which will be used in the assault and that the strange light phenomenon over Romania, Moscow and China (although I can’t find the video for that one).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9XvBYBOFKaM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FXF9HSB627U

Yugoslavia is the model and test case for aggression against Russia.

Not only are the same Islamic networks and countries involved but also the same in intelligence front NGO’s (NED, USAID, Soros, etc), but the same hyper inflated death toll which changes depending on the source 100,000, 100,000-200,000, 250,000 and as high as 500,000, ludicrous rape number of 30,000 and even the narrative is the same Milosevic Communist authoritarian leader supporting nationalism and separatism in ethnic enclaves of Serbs in Croatia, Bosnia and Kosovo

You will also note that Obama’s staff is almost entirely made up of people involved in supporting Islamic terrorism as far back as 79 in Afghanistan (Brzezinski and Gates) and Clintons destruction of Yugoslavia (Holbrooke, Albright, General Jones, etc).

OK so could you please make your hypothesis falsifiable by providing us with some dates? Thx.

I don't have time just now to post all the information but as I been saying Brzezinski has been positioning NATO forces in key positions allied with strategic allies in preparation for war against the Eurasian sphere just like all the pieces were in place prior to WW2 using Nazi Germany as a proxy to target the USSR and annex it’s strategic locations of natural resources in the Caucasus and Siberia which dates back to western support of the Bolshevik revolution and failed anti-Bolshevik forces in the Caucasus and Siberia.

*sigh*

SolarSun, please provide me with a definition for war. I feel like the concept has been rather muddled in this conversation - do you mind providing a measure of clarity? Before I can accept your claims that the United States is waging a covert war on the Russian state, please, I ask, give me a concise and simple definition for what is and what is not warfare.

@Anatoly Karlin

Yes but this is a revised Nuclear war doctrine.

And it is not just that as Justine Ramandio of antiwar.com mentioned in an article a couple of month’s back Washington is running war games simulations against Russia and China.

There was a leading establishment like military think tank analysing establishment like military think tank analysing

And as I have predicted and been saying for years with Brezinski there objective is to destabilise Eurasia via Islamic just like they did Yugoslavia and it is totally predictable that since Obama/Brezinski administration came to power

I believe and I think it is obvious that the US/NATO goal is to push these Islamic militants into Central Asia to destabilise the region as I stated in a previous thread.

Currently as I mentioned before and predicted they would are promoting Uighur Muslims in Xinjiang against China like this establishment worm Peter Hitchen’s in the Daily Mail.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1233439/Special-Investigation-PETER-HITCHENS--Blood-fear-Happiness-Street-China-threatens-obliterate-ancient-culture.html

I would login in to post comment s with links detailing there links to the CIA and RAND Corporations “Xinjiang Project” but I can’t remember if I ever registered with the Daily Mail I’ll have check my email.

That map refers to a proposal by the FAS to <b>reduce</b> the damage to Russia in a US nuclear response by targeting counter-value targets in a strategy of minimal deterrence (much like what China has today).

In fact Washington has drawn nuclear strategy plans as a war doctrine to target Russian infrastructure.

This is rather nonsensical. Moscow and Washington have both had nuclear war plans since the 1950's to destroy the other side's military potential. They still do, though planners spend a lot less time thinking about them nowadays.

Best review of Call of Duty: Modern Warfare 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVHKvcCh_zU

@T. Greer

And no war has expanded to include every precondition for armed conflict. The problem with this is easy to see. There are dozens of prerequisites that must be met before a war between two states is possible. A country must have people, for one. Is the production of food, the watering of fields, or the mothering of sons also a function of war? Every conflict throughout history has total war, if we are to take you by your word.

Obviously it must have people then they would not need to fight as there is no one to fight against.

And there is a thing called international law states can't just go and invade other states without a viable reason/pretext.

Best example was Iraq were evidence was cooked up to pose Saddam as a threat WMD, links to Al Qaeda, etc.
Or the new excuse for waging war to prevent "genocide" with "humanitarian intervention" which is actual part of Soros Open Society philosophy who ran alternative anti-Milosevic/pro Albanian media in the former Yugoslavia and financed training of Otpor activists to overthrow the Milosevic government.

Now we have another definition of war! So now a country cannot be part of a conflict unless it faces "social degradation" and the "destruction of physical industrial output". This seems quite curious to me. I may be wrong, but I have been told that the United States was a participator in the Second World War. Did they not have industrial growth during that time?

I didn’t say that all these were prerequisite for war to be meet that leads to war but they are an instrument of war obviously if you are going to attack a country you do not do it when it is military or socially strong.

Yes I think economic warfare is an instrument of war like sanctions imposed on Iraq and Serbia before there was actual physical warfare.
Can’t wage a war or become strong independent state without a manufacturing production base.

In fact Washington has drawn nuclear strategy plans as a war doctrine to target Russian infrastructure.

Kotare's piece was prompted by a blogger who called the subversive tactics between the Dems and the GOP war, yes. But I think you missed the reason I posted it. In the post, Kotare gave a fair (if rudimentary) definition for war. I will repeat it again for the benefit of everybody reading this thread:

Only when political discourse breaks down entirely, and two sides take up arms against each other, does politics become war.

If there is not armed conflict between two groups, it is not war. It is politics, diplomacy, economics, cultural diffusion - but it is not war.

So it is only warfare when two groups of armed combatants are physically fighting each other?

Then why is psychological operations considered a form of warfare by the US government under the CIA.

And they had Economic and Political Warfare agencies during WW2.

World War II
There was extensive use of psychological operations in World War II, from the strategic to the tactical. National-level white propaganda was the responsibility of the Office of War Information, while black propaganda was most often the responsibility of the Morale Operations branch of the Office of Strategic Services (OSS).[14]

Psychological operations planning started before the US entry into the war, with the creation of the Office of the Coordinator of Inter-American Affairs (CIAA), under Nelson Rockefeller, with the responsibility for psychological operations targeted at Latin America.[15] Special operations and intelligence concerning Latin America was a bureaucratic problem throughout the war. Where the OSS eventually had most such responsibilities, the FBI had its own intelligence system in Latin America.
On 11 July 1941, William Donovan was named the Coordinator of Information, which subsequently became the OSS. At first, there was a unit called the Foreign Information Service inside COI, headed by Robert Sherwood, which produced white propaganda outside Latin America.[15]
To deal with some of the bureaucratic problems, the Office of War Information (OWl) was created with Elmer Davis as director. FIS, still under Sherwood, became the Overseas Branch of OWl, dealing in white propaganda. OSS was created at the same time. Donovan obtained considerable help from the British, especially with black propaganda, from the British Political Warfare Executive (PWE), part of the Ministry of Economic Warfare. PWE was a sister organization to the Special Operations Executive, which conducted guerilla warfare. The British Secret Intelligence Service (SIS, also known as MI6), was an essentially independent organization. For the US, the OSS included the functions of SIS and SOE, and the black propaganda work of PWE.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychological_Operations_(United_States)#History_of_US_Psychological_Warfare

"The Central Intelligence Agency owns everyone of any significance in the major media."
--William Colby, former CIA Director, quoted by Dave Mcgowan, Derailing Democracy