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  • Posted by T. Greer 2 years ago. There are 25 posts. The latest reply is from Kurt.
  1. ... because we have geoengineering.

    I will assume that most of you know what geonengineering is. In a sense we have been active participants in this type of engineering much longer than most imagine; the current climate crisis is a direct result of the unintentional engineering of our planet's atmosphere. While it has been a taboo subject (a 'green' transformation being the only politically correct response to AGW these days), the reality of intentional geoengineering is something analysts need to come to terms with.

    Many have predicted that unchecked AGW shall reap destruction upon the civilizations of the Earth. The author of this forum has gone so far to say that predicting anything past 2030-2040 is near impossible as AGW means that "all bets are off everywhere." (I ask skeptics and moderates (i.e. the IPCC) to accept this characterization of future warming for the sake of argument.) Clearly climate change poses a near existential threat to developing and developed countries alike.

    This is why it will never happen. Three things guarantee that sometime in the next fifty years major climate changing geoengineering projects will come to pass.

    The first is that geoengineering is cheap. This is a relative of course - something cheap to the Pentagon is not cheap to the rest of us. But this is exactly my point: geonengineering is just another government project. In comparison to military budgets and social welfare safety nets, geoengineering comes off the cheaper, to say nothing of the trillions of dollars that will be needed to mitigate emissions on a large scale.

    The second is that geoengineering can be done unilaterally. Countries are hesitant to commit to C02 reductions without guarantees that the rest of the world will walk off the cliff of economic suicide with them. The unequal distribution of the ill effects of climate change also makes states hesitant to pitch in - by doing so they are doing little more than underwriting the security and stability of regions across the poorer areas of the world with their own precious gold. Making things worse is that emissions can only be lowered multilaterally. If one big emitter does not go along with the plan, then the whole scheme amounts to nothing.

    Not so with geoengineering. One state is all that you need to engineer the climate. Granted, the state must have a secure source of funds, but this does not provide a problem to the largest emitters. And if the effects of climate change are to be as dangerous as has been suggested, there is no reason that a country particularly susceptible to ecosystem collapse (say, China or India) will not unilaterally cool the world's climate, international consensus be damned.

    The final pertinent aspect of geoengineering is its timescale. The dirty secret of the climate debates is that emission reductions won't have an affect for a good 40-50 years; this is within the timespan of doom prophesied by Lymas et al. Making things worse, we have almost undoubtedly passed the point of systematic risk - a positive feedback loop has been established that ensures that warming will continue regardless of emissions.

    Geoengineering is the only way to stop this loop. It is also a policy whose ramifications will quickly be felt - we possess the power to cool the Earth for years at a time. The implications of this are frightening (think of a world in which we change climatic conditions to favor one side or another that is engaged in war), but they are real nonetheless.

    FIN

  2. That's a very thoughtful and interesting post, Greer.

    I completely agree with you very soon geoengineering research will be a extremely important - the process is already beginning - and within a few more decades, perhaps as soon as the 2030's, actual physical construction will begin, probably by a coalition of countries like the US and China, etc. They will simply have no other choice. I've already written about the probable inevitability of geoengineering in The Dilemmas of Global Dimming (see last section).

    The crux of the problem is that there are a number of stumbling blocks which make this a very fragile solution - see the Wiki page.

    1. The science is poorly understood, and despite the research I doubt this will change cardinally - the Earth is an extremely complex system. Solutions may need to be far more extensive, and hence costly, by an order of magnitude. Or alternatively we might overcompensate - "Oops we released too many sulphate particles, we have an Ice Age, sorry Russia & Canada!"
    2. Which brings me to another point - the potential for international conflict (i.e. your "unilateralism" point can be negative as easily as positive). Anything to do with blocking or diluting the Sun's rays will have very big effect on regional climes, having the potential to cancel the El Nino system, stall the monsoons, induce desertification, drastically reduce photosynthetic potential, etc. It won't matter if the aggrieved nations are small and weak, but if they are Great Powers they can lash out at the system. Weaponizing the climate becomes an accepted form of warfare (it kind of already is, but even more so).
    3. Another important thing is that climate change is only one part of emerging limits to growth (LtG). Linearly projecting from today, substantial geoengineering projects *might* be inexpensive enough to be implemented without significant cuts in security / military, other investments, or the consumption needed to keep people satiated. In a world facing many other pressures, key amongst them the declining EROEI of energy and an uncertain food outlook, diverting resources for geoengineering may prove to be a significant, if necessary, further strain on the entire system. Everywhere citizens will be growing tired of the ever heavier burden of the state, which will be further reinforced by their perceived arrogance in trying to take control over the weather like some kind of god.
    4. Furthermore, geoengineering can exacerbate some of the LtG stresses. If you follow thru on the releasing sulphate aerosols idea, this will reinforce global dimming and lead to reduced crop yields - a similar effect, ultimately, on food production that you would have had from the heat stress of global warming left unchecked. As I asked in The Dilemmas, would you prefer "Fire or darkness?"
    5. Finally, there's the fact that all these solution are fragile and vulnerable to disruption. Aggrieved states who suffer from its effects. Even terrorists. For instance, one of the things I think may be done is to combine a solar sunshade with space-based solar power (which is in principle 3x as efficient as ground-based, if you exclude the costs of getting the material into space). Combining them will make a powerful synthesis that could kill two birds with one stone. However, such a huge structure, whose location is always known ("L1"), will be very vulnerable to damage and destruction from Earth for any nation with advanced rocket and/or laser capabilities.

    So basically, I agree with you geoengineering can and almost certainly will be tried. Whether it amounts to anything, or could even be sustained, is a different question.

  3. I have to agree with Anatoly.

    Geoengineering even if applied, may either not work or deliver even more undesirable situation than we are in.
    There are very few schemes which are of any promise to work at all.

    So in particular space mirrors are firmly in SF domain and will remain so, sulfur/sulfate particles might work and lower temperatures by fraction of centigrade as long as we are going to load to stratosphere every year as much as Mt Pinatubo eruption did.
    That is because sulfur is quickly washed down on earth (effects of Mt. Pinatubo eruption didn't last more than a year and a bit).
    On the other hand, if we are going to lower temperature by even 1.5*C, then our annual global production of sulfur will not do (for linear drop of temperature you need exponentially growing sulfur load).
    So really sulfur based adventure have no prospect of success.
    Another approach was based on ocean fertilization with iron with hope that it will deliver a lot of CO2 gobbling algi.
    However experiments have shown that it is not the case because algal bloom is swiftly followed by other organisms which are eating algi and so it quickly fizzles out.
    Ideas like artificial trees are good, if one want some research funds to waste and live comfortably meantime but above that they are completely useless.

    So we are left with about only one hopeful project - "cloud ships" and this may or may not work and if it does, some unexpected and undesirable problems may easily emerge.

    It is not even worth to discuss geoengineering from an angle of unilateral action.
    We can easily end up with one nation deliberately cooling climate and another one deliberately warming it up.
    Outcome would be unpredictable and most likely very unpleasant.
    Without a political agreement of major global powers geoengineering is a no go area.

  4. A few more thoughts.

    Both Anatoly (in points #1 and #4) and Martin point out that the science of geoengineering is rather shaky - it is not as if we have a laboratory to practice terraforming experiments with, right?

    I do not dispute this point. Nor do I dispute that geoenginnering will have unforeseeable consequences. It is also true that there are very few technologically viable geoengineering options at this moment in time.

    None of this detracts from my over all point, however. Humanity has a history of dealing with problems of today without thought of the problems of tomorrow. (An idea at the center of Mr. Tainter's studies, to choose a work popular here.) There is no reason to expect this to change in the future. If one country is one the brink of an existential climate-inspire subsistence crisis, I doubt that they will slow down to consider the possible unforeseen consequences their actions may have -- there simply will not be enough time for such.

    Likewise, I do not think India is going to give a wit for how Russia will fare in an ice age.

    The possibility of conflict is thus very high. If the Russians think that the Indians are about to trigger an ice age then they will doubtlessly do all they can to stop the Indians from moving forward. If this involves the utilization of military force, then it shall be utilized.

    The really frightening scenario, however, is one in which many countries are attempting to manipulate the climate at the same time. We both have mentioned this in our respective posts, but I think it merits further discussion. Retaliatory climate degradation might be the future of warfare; it may very well prove to be one of the more dangerous threats to face humanity. If multiple actors are playing with the climate, the chances of any one of them messing up on a grand and irreversible scale skyrockets.

    Cost and LtG are the two largest problems facing geoengineering. Two points come to mind, however. The first is one I have already said: the cost of geoengineering will be cheaper for most countries than will mitigation or most adaptation schemes. That is the first area in which cost shall be reduced. The second is the increasing power of technology -- you can cry "Limits to Growth" all you want, but I will bet my left hand that the costs of performing large scale geoengineering will be significantly less (and will use significantly less resources) in 2030 than it does now.

  5. The second is the increasing power of technology -- you can cry "Limits to Growth" all you want, but I will bet my left hand that the costs of performing large scale geoengineering will be significantly less (and will use significantly less resources) in 2030 than it does now.

    I would be very careful with this "increasing power of technology".

    Of course there might be a great scientific progress until 2030, but this is far from certain.
    It is a normal operating procedure within a business environment facing economic difficulties to cut R&D expenses first and concentrate on promotion of existing product line.
    One can argue that it is unwise, but nevertheless it is usually one of first steps of cost cutting within an industry.
    Someone may argue that in such circumstances governments will pick that bill and by resorting to Keynesian economic practice they will fund necessary projects.
    However we are missing one important point:
    Our governments becoming to be as broke as businesses are, their tax revenue is crumbling and the only resolve left at their disposal right now is to resort to money printing.
    Needless to say such adventure cannot proceed for long and an outcome is not very difficult to predict.
    So the first obstacle, which I can see now is financial in nature.
    Industrial civilization as we know it is already bankrupt.

    Another problem is that even if we assume uninterrupted progress of technology it is quite likely that a viable technology allowing to lower temperatures and avert other effects of pending climate changes in available timescale left simply does not exist and cannot exist even in theory.
    Alternatively such technology may in fact exist but might require exponentially increasing effort with the progress of time. If the latter is true, than we could buy some time indeed but once our ability to feed increasing needs of a scheme is exhausted and a scheme is broken down, we would face violent reset with ecological collapse of catastrophic magnitude.
    Peak fossil fuels is likely to produce such a reset once a phenomenon of global dimming has collapsed.

    Finally there is third possibility that we may discover necessary technology but actual input of necessary resources would be so huge that an idea would remain hopelessly impractical to implement.
    I would place ideas related to deliberate sulfur emissions in such category.
    With continuous extreme efforts we could lower temperatures by a fraction of centigrade perhaps but that is too little and too late and would not change overall picture of unfolding events.

    Even more disturbing possibility is that common sulfur derivatives like SO2 are showing only very transient cooling effect and in longer run they are powerful greenhouse gases.
    http://www.elsevierscitech.com/emails/physics/TSF_Elsevier_Publishes_NEW_Research_on_Global_Warming.html
    If so, then our sulfur based geoengineering efforts would rather exacerbate, not ameliorate effects of climate change.
    That would be a real joke played by Mother Nature against humanity.

  6. I'm interested how the climate change will effect Russia. Anatoly has written that Russia is one of the main beneficiaries of global warming. However a recent report from World Bank claims that Russia will be one of the biggest losers of climate change: http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601130&sid=adL3Gwp6hZco

    I'm not an expert about climate change but as a cold country Russia could to gain from global warming, but only if it does bring more drought and desertation to Russia.

  7. I'm not an expert about climate change but as a cold country Russia could to gain from global warming, but only if it does bring more drought and desertation to Russia.

    That should of course read as "but only if it does not bring more droughts and desertation to Russia."

  8. In any case it is not a good idea to take too much faith in various predictions delivered by all sort of noble Western financial institutions.
    These are of a very limited (if any) use while dealing with immediate problems of Western banking sector, let alone Russian problems related to climate change.

    Many opinions of this kind are also not impartial and they are meant to influence capital flow in one way or another.

    IMO from strictly weather related point of view Russia may well end up to be beneficiary but on the other hand severe ecological degradation of China is going to expose Russian Far East to significant and may be intractable risk related to yellow peril.
    Nothing, including nuclear weapons can stop 100 millions or more of Chinese ecological refugees attempting to chaotically invade sparsely populated Russian Asian territories.
    These territories are going to be more hospitable as a result of GW as well.
    Russian position might be impossible to defend in such scenario and Russians are likely to end up overrun in such development.

  9. Martin,

    Climate change is a serious matter and one of the things that will change things globally. Many have predicted that Russia and Canada will benefit from global warming and that seems to make sense since Canada and Russia are the two coldest countries in the world. The latest report from World Bank gives us a different opinion about Russia's position. As a russophile i would like Russia to benefit from climate change. Russians have so often gotten the short stick in many events (WWI, Bolshevik revolution, WWII (yes, the USSR won but it never really fully recovered from the losses it had to face in that war), the collapse of communism, rampant alcoholism and drug problems etc. It would be great if the climate change would actually be a lottery win for Russia. This country needs a break.

  10. IMO from strictly weather related point of view Russia may well end up to be beneficiary but on the other hand severe ecological degradation of China is going to expose Russian Far East to significant and may be intractable risk related to yellow peril.

    I'm not so sure that the Chinese will take over Siberia. If Chinese want more "lebensraum" the sparcely populated Mongolia and Kazakhstan seem like a better destination than a nuclear power like Russia.

  11. I am not talking about lebensraum for Chinese.
    I am rather considering massive uncontrollable relocation of hundreds of millions of Chinese, once their local ecological carrying capacity have collapsed.
    No one, including Russian and Chinese Army combined, would be able to stop such a move and all those refugees would go where the carrying capacity still exist.
    They would care little, is it Mongolia, Russia or Kazakhstan.

  12. I am rather considering massive uncontrollable relocation of hundreds of millions of Chinese, once their local ecological carrying capacity have collapsed.

    China's population is going to face a decline in the next 10-30 years which will ease the ecological damage faced by the Chinese population.

    Also, Siberia and Russian far east don't have an infrastructure to quickly relocate hundreds of thousands or even millions of Chinese refugees.

  13. China's population is going to face a decline in the next 10-30 years which will ease the ecological damage faced by the Chinese population.

    This assumptions are unfounded.
    Despite of 1 child policy Chinese TFR is still close to 2 and there is also increasing realization within Chinese authorities that one child policy will have to be modified and more children permitted, just to maintain population quality.
    Here you have a reference to work of respected Chinese academic dealing with that issue:
    http://muse.jhu.edu/journals/china/v002/2.1peng.html
    It is also pointed out that Chinese population will still increase at least up to 2050, even if current rules are left in force.
    So we are likely to see ecological collapse of China well before their population even begin to drop.

    Relative absence of infrastructure on Russian Far East will not prevent desperate ecological refugees from coming either, particularly if GW provided more farmable/inhabitable land there.
    I think, Russians should take discussed scenario very seriously.

  14. @Martin

    I think more likely that terrorists in Xinjing would force Chinese immigration into Siberia like the US and others tried to do and they did for a period between 97 and 2000 use Chechnya as a base to destabilise the whole of Russia's South

    I am amazed actually at how little Chinese there is at only 34577 according to the 2002 Russian census.Surely there must be some mistake/flaw in the census?

    I am amazed how people completely underestimate the scope and scale of this terrorism issue in Russia, Central Asia and China it's international, interconnected Central Asian terrorists groups with ties to western intelligence and Soviet era Russian/Israeli organised crime (check out some of the research and investigative work of Dennis Hopsicker which I posted in the thread 10 things you didnt know about 9/11). Some groups like Hiz-But-Tahrir even get government support in the UK and other European countries.

    This is exactly how Communist coup came about in Russia through exiled international terrorist organisations with links and lobbying to western intelligence and international banking/financiers who can exert economic restrictions under any pretext and links to organised crime. The Marxist terrorists and organised crime like today’s Jihadist’s and organised crime KLA, Chechens, etc were probably two sides of the same coin, inter-connected one not be able to function and achieve success without the other.

  15. Terrorism in Xinjing alone is not likely to cause much population displacement.
    You must understand that Xinjing is a mineral rich province of China and also relatively unpopulated one due to harsh environmental conditions.
    I do not expect Han Chinese to face insurmountable problems with their attempts to pacify this province, should need arisen, at least until China itself have faced ultimate ecological collapse.
    You must remember that something like 92% of citizens of China are Han Chinese - a largest "tribe" on the world. So despite of many minorities living there Han Chinese are in overwhelming excess and are not afraid of any troublesome minorities, which should worst come to worst may simply end up exterminated.
    In Xinjing Han Chinese are already constituting about 50% of inhabitants, so it would not be an easy task to flush them out, say to Russia or to Kazakhstan.

    Chinese are not like Americans either. They care little about so called "human rights" which are recently preventing Americans from winning conclusively in Afghanistan.
    If they face some local minority uprising here or there, they will simply crush population, very much like they are doing on Tibet right now or like Batu Khan have done in Russia 800 years ago or so.
    They are not afraid of atomic weapons either, what was clearly demonstrated during Korean War.
    US Army was never in its history escaping faster.

    Nevertheless I agree with you that numbers of Chinese already settled within Russian Federation is in all probabilities grossly underestimated. Vast areas of Russian Far East are very sparsely populated and practically beyond administrative control of Russian authorities.
    Native locals there are also ethnically far more related to Chinese than to Russians and this can complicate issues further because they might be sympathetic to Chinese immigrants and assist them with resettlement.

    In any case, facing inevitable ecological collapse guaranteed by current economic model, vast numbers of destitute Chinese will have a little choice but to attempt resettlement up north.
    Nature abhors vacuum.
    If there are inhabitable lands on Russian Far East and Russians are not inhabiting these, someone other will.

    Facing ecological die-off very few peoples would curl on the floor and peacefully die singing Kumbayaah.
    They will try to survive regardless and their ends will justify means.

  16. Wow, great discussion folks.

    Re-Geoengineering

    Both T. Greer and Martin make very good points. It is however interesting that ultimately, despite that Greer is much more optimistic about technological progress, we all come to the same conclusion - if successful, effective cooperation on geoengineering is going to be extremely hard to achieve, and may easily tip over into geophysical warfare.

    I liked Martin's remarks on technology. It is going to be very interesting seeing whether progress in this area is going to accelerate, decelerate, or stay the same. Not only money and resources are involved, however, but the nature of different technological branches as well. If you look at genetics or IT, one might conclude it will continue accelerating, perhaps away into a technological singularity; look at more mundane, but more central, things such as the internal combustion engine, and you might conclude progress is already slowing down rapidly, despite the proliferation of R&D centers and universities around the world.

    Based on these observations, my strong impression is that much of the physical base of industrial civilization will retain its basic current, form - a world of highways, railways, steel mills, conveyor belts, mines, etc. However, it will be rapidly overlain by a global electronic net of ever bigger scope and overall intelligence, which will allow the entire system to become much more efficient and much more "controlled". But it will still remain the same system, based on extracting resources and emitting pollution; all its efficiency gains swallowed up by increased demand from emerging Asia (at a global scale, the Jevons paradox will continue).

    This is unsustainable for any significant amount of time, which is is why I believe there *will* be attempts at geoengineering, like Greer; but like Martin I am very skeptical as to their chances of success.

    Re-the China / Russia relations.

    The Rosstat estimates of Chinese migrants are indeed low (the true figure is around 250,000, according to the non-polemical academic studies). For today, there is relatively little settlement of Chinese in Russia. Wages in the Russian Far East are somewhat higher than in North-East China, but the advantages are eaten up by bribes and living in an unfamiliar, costlier environment. According to polls, the vast majority of Chinese seasonal migrants to the Far East have no intention of staying.

    I've written an essay on this topic, The Myth of the Yellow Peril: Overhyping Chinese Migration into Russia. The last bit may be worth quoting at length since it directly touches on many of the issues raised.

    I will now go beyond demography into geopolitics. China is not the monolith that it is usually painted as in the West; its strong central government conceals a greater deal of simmer, dynamism and regionalism. The idea that it could organize a successful stealth demographic invasion of the Far East is preposterous. The only way in which something like this could succeed would be if Russia were to collapse again and to a far greater extent than during the 1990's, e.g. like during the Civil War when Vladivostok was occupied by the Japanese. This is possible, but highly unlikely.

    What you have instead is a reversion to Nineteenth-century traditions, in which Korean and Chinese laborers and traders made seasonal migrations to the Far East and built up sizable, but far from demographically dominant, communities in the region (who were later deported to Central Asia in 1937 over fears of Japanese espionage).

    Why a Russo-Chinese War Is Extremely Unlikely

    Speaking of which, that would be a real concern if China were to ever invade. That said, Chinese expansion has always been primarily aimed at South East Asia - today's strategic posture and Chinese military planning in general emphasizes a limited, hi-tech war against the likes of Taiwan, Japan the U.S. Historically China aimed to achieve three geopolitical aims in the following order:

    1) Maintain central authority over the commercial seaboard and the peasant hinterland

    2) Surround itself by a buffer of vassal states on land - Tibet, Sinkiang, Mongolia, Manchuria, etc.

    3) Build a strong navy to repel sea-based foreign predation, protect its trade and extend its influence over East Asia. Now and in the future, China is going to have cope with a panoply of threats to those geopolitical goals - rising inequalities, a disconnected bureaucracy, ethnic separatism and American and Japanese sea power. In other words, it's going to have its hands full and Chinese willingness to pursue reconciliation and friendship with Russia is a reflection of its need for a safe strategic rear (see Sino-Russian Relations in China Debates the Future Security Environment, Michael Pillsbury).

    China is going to run into severe ecological problems within the next few decades. Water tables are plummeting in the country's northern breadbasket, crop yields are stagnating and the deserts are spreading. The south has plenty of water but is threatened by inundation due to the melting of the icecaps. The rivers that feed its people and industry are going to run dry as the Himalayan glaciers melt away. This means that as soon as the 2030's, overpopulated China will be faced with a scenario in which it will either have to acquire new lands or face a sustenance crisis, perhaps culminating in a die-off typical of past cycles. Would it invade the Russian Far East?

    The problem with this is that even if it were to succeed in conquering it, actually building up the infrastructure for human accommodation will take decades; the land is barren, mountainous and will remain very cold even after significant global warming [Haushofer's point about lack of infrastructure]. The actual war will be very costly for the Chinese because the Russians will almost certainly use their huge stockpile of tactical nuclear weapons to check the assault. Should the Russians lose, it's possible they will unleash their much superior strategic nuclear arsenal or even worse weapons on China - thus destroying their industrial infrastructure and precipitating a massive die-off.

    Hence I believe that if, or more likely when, ecological problems reach a critical point in China they will expand into (by then collapsed?) East Africa, using the mighty navy they foresightedly built up to forestall anyone who has a problem with that. It will also guarantee continued energy, food and resource flows into metropolitan China from Australia and Latin America. Eventually it is possible that Russia (and Canada) will fully open up their borders to immigration from the sinking and drying south, in which case the Far East will become Chinese. But this is all futuristic speculation.

    One more thing not covered above. What will happen IF there is a Chinese collapse with massive refugee flows, in which the Chinese state does not make a last-ditch attempt to conquer Lebensraum? Given enough ruthlessness and disregard to human rights, the Russian Army, or any modern army, has the full technical capability to defend its own soil from any amount of unarmed, desperate refugees. It won't even be a fight. The big question in this scenario is whether it would come to that.

  17. One more thing not covered above. What will happen IF there is a Chinese collapse with massive refugee flows, in which the Chinese state does not make a last-ditch attempt to conquer Lebensraum? Given enough ruthlessness and disregard to human rights, the Russian Army, or any modern army, has the full technical capability to defend its own soil from any amount of unarmed, desperate refugees. It won't even be a fight. The big question in this scenario is whether it would come to that.

    I am not sure that these would be unarmed.
    Plenty of various weapons and combat expertise could be made available to such refugees from decaying outposts of Peoples Liberation Army of China.
    You could expect countless raids of well armed guerrilla like forces first and women or children would only follow later once any Russian resistance is broken in given area.
    Think about them like they are a sort of Chechens or Afghans with one important difference:
    Lets say that there is only 100 millions of them and 20 millions are armed to some degree.
    In reality, once ecological collapse of China is under way, you could well be lucky to face only 100 millions of refugees.
    I have written several days ago few remarks in your "shifting winds" blog, why IMO it is unlikely that Chinese would even consider Africa as a food source in ecological collapse scenario and why Russian Far East could easily become a primary invasion target, organized or chaotic, doesn't matter.

  18. I find this talk of non-existent technological change to be very silly. On paper the idea of R&D being cut seems to make sense, but history doesn't support the notion. Past depressions and recessions did not reduce the amount or the pace of technological advance. A quick look at patent statistics supports this statement. (Indeed, one notices that there was an acceleration in the number of patents issued during the Great Depression!)

    If you look at genetics or IT, one might conclude it will continue accelerating, perhaps away into a technological singularity; look at more mundane, but more central, things such as the internal combustion engine, and you might conclude progress is already slowing down rapidly, despite the proliferation of R&D centers and universities around the world.

    Imagine, if you will, an analyst in 1899 saying, "If you look at diesel automobiles and other oil powered machinery, one might conclude that technological growth will continue accelerating. But if you look at the more mundane and central technologies, such as the steel plow or steel framed wagon wheel, you might conclude that technological progress is already slowing down, despite the proliferation of advanced farming techniques across the world!"

    I would like to leave with a question, for anyone interested- do you think that progress in nanotechnology is going to crash and burn, hitting limits to growth anytime soon? Progress in this field could easily transform geoengineering into a cheap and viable policy option.

  19. I would like to leave with a question, for anyone interested- do you think that progress in nanotechnology is going to crash and burn, hitting limits to growth anytime soon? Progress in this field could easily transform geoengineering into a cheap and viable policy option.

    To the effect of grey goo scenario?

    I find this talk of non-existent technological change to be very silly. On paper the idea of R&D being cut seems to make sense, but history doesn't support the notion.

    Performance of the past is not necessarily a guideline to performance of the future.
    Eventual collapse of exponential growth model in physically constrained world is a mathematical certainty.
    Up to quite recently you was living in a world of expanding energy and other minerals availability, however this situation have changed.
    There are physical, real world problems, which have no viable technological solutions to them even in theory.

  20. @T. Greer,

    You are correct that R&D tends to increase during normal recessions. Companies don't need to increase their production capacity, so they shift instead to designing better products in anticipation of better times.

    However, what we may see is not a mere recession or even depression, but a full-fledged discontinuity, e.g. a loss of faith in any future economic growth - not an unrealistic proposition in a world of limits to growth where the likes of an expanding China come into intense competition for remaining resources.

    So perhaps another valid scenario would be like the Soviet collapse, in which the share of R&D in the national economy fell from an advanced-industrial rate of 2.5% of GDP in the 1980's to around 1.0% in the post-Soviet era, a figure which hasn't substantially changed even during the Putin-era recovery. (Nor was this even especially tied to reductions in military R&D - it remained at a constant 75% of all R&D activity both during the USSR and in today's Russia).

    This does not mean a technological collapse, of course. Progress will continue, at least in some technological spheres, although at a much lower pace.

    Re-nanotechnology.

    It is already a multi-billion dollar industry, e.g. computer chips, but not yet revolutionary - as of today, this is just a continuation of traditional top-down miniaturization (the procedure that gave us clocks, gauges, etc). For that to happen we need to master bottom-up, molecular nanotechnology.

    Whether this will happen in the requisite timeframe to solve out LtG problems is highly uncertain. Ray Kurzweil believes it will (he projects the nanotech revolution by the 2030's); if he proves too optimistic or the speed of technological progress is derailed by disruptions, it will not come in time.

    PS. AFAIK, "grey goo" has no longer been considered to be a serious danger by people in the know for quite a while now.

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